Helen Zille, the DA’s mayoral candidate for Johannesburg, tells Gabriel Makin that the city is not on brink of falling into the abyss but is already over the edge. She also explains why the least-bad option for the DA after the 4 November election may be opposition rather than a coalition, why she does not believe corruption can be removed from Johannesburg with the ANC in government, and why she wants voters to consolidate behind the DA on both ballots so that the party can win 136 of the council’s 270 seats.

Helen and Gabriel discuss whether she feels vindicated after years of being called a liability to the DA, her fight against critical race theory inside the party, and why the DA’s support base is now roughly a third black, a third white, and a third coloured and Indian. She also reflects on how the DA grew from a 1.7% party in 1994 (when it was the DP) to a party of national government today.

The conversation then turns to the drug crisis in Johannesburg, the “doomsday coalition” already running the city, her account of why Herman Mashaba turned against her, the MKP’s crimen injuria case, and her role in breaking the story of Steve Biko’s death.