DA MP Mlondi Mdluli, the party's spokesperson on small business development, returns to Conversations with Gabriel. He walks Gabriel Makin through the five reforms from his piece for The Common Sense including providing working capital that is not a bank loan and by-law enforcement that does not ruin livelihoods, amongst others. Gabriel presses him on whether the state should help small business or simply get out of its way. Mlondi also talks about his life as a DA MP with a DA deputy minister inside the department he oversees, and running the DA's local election campaign in the Umzinyathi district of KwaZulu-Natal, why KwaZulu-Natal has not followed the shift in black support seen elsewhere, and his predictions for 4 November.