In this episode Gabriel Makin is joined by the Head of Policy for the Democratic Alliance (DA), Mat Cuthbert. The conversation begins with Mat's background and then transitions to his role in proposing the fundamentally important "Economic inclusion for all" bill, which seeks to restructure the way that the South African state does empowerment policy. Mat explains that the changes he is proposing would include replacing race with poverty as a proxy for disadvantage, rewarding businesses for broad-based empowerment schemes as opposed to narrow equity requirements and moving away from taxing capital on arrival in South Africa. Mat explains that the policy has been very well-received across the political, business and journalist worlds and has now opened the door for the DA to press the issue until the African National Congress (ANC) is willing to compromise. From there the conversation broadens its scope as Mat and Gabriel look at what the other priority policy areas are for the DA. Mat explains that the DA is making a more concerted effort to push reforms on crime, as the ANC are clinically weak on that issue. The DA are proposing recapacitating the South African Police Service, devolving investigative powers to functional regional or municipal governments and actively pursuing corrupt officials. After this the conversation turns more general as Mat and Gabriel explore the DA's realistic path to reform.