Floyd Shivambu, who co-founded the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF), served as secretary-general of the uMkhonto weSizwe Party and now leads the Afrika Mayibuye Movement, joins Gabriel Makin to talk about why he believes the African National Congress (ANC) is dying a natural death, and what he wants to build in its place. Shivambu traces his path from his hometown in Limpopo, Malamulele, to Wits student politics to the ANC Youth League, his suspension from the ANC in 2012 and the founding of the EFF in 2013.

Floyd explains the seven EFF pillars, why he thinks the party has stalled at about 10% of the vote, and why he left without taking “even a pen”. He then sets out the case for Afrika Mayibuye: a role for traditional leaders and churches, budgets built from ward level up, and community health and farming programmes. Meanwhile, Gabriel, a conservative in the classical liberal tradition, pushes back on China, Marxism, and the state, and the two find some common ground on common prosperity.

They close on the DA in government, Western pressure on South Africa’s energy policy, lessons from Ethiopia, and the State Security Agency’s attempts to infiltrate the EFF.