In this astonishing exchange Frans Cronje and the panel talk about Jacob Zuma and how if elite society and the business community had not "treated him like a goat herder from Zululand who did not belong in the same rarified air as they did" South Africa's future might have been different. Frans talks about the first serious investor event that he and John Kane-Berman still arranged for Zuma and of how surprised people were at their advice that Zuma would be President. Frans talks of how hurt Zuma later became at the manner in which elite society responded to his succeeding Thabo Mbeki and what the consequences of that ultimately became.